I think it's interesting how many insano's, left-wingers (and some conservatives), and in general, conspiracy theorists, maintain such a prodigious faith in the infallibility of George W. Bush and his current government concerning the attacks of 9/11. I personally think Bush and his administration have done a horrible job in general, but particularly with the lack of any sort of prescience (or at least action on what they could piece together) regarding the attacks on our country on September 11th. They're too dumb to have pulled off something like this.
The conspiracy theorists mentioned above however, must have the most heartfelt admiration and confidence in Bush and his ilk to believe that the government could have possibly pulled off something as big and extravagant as the 9/11 attacks, while being able to keep everything so hush-hush. They also must be complete assholes (the conspiracy theorists, not Bush, though Bush is an asshole.)
Anyway, the below clip is a couple of months old, but unfortunately it will continue to be relevant for decades as crazy folk persist in grasping onto tendrils of information that they blow out to ridiculously colossal conspiratorial proportions.
To whomever happens to come to this blog, you know that I hold no credence in 9/11 conspiracy theories. But I'm not an expert. Instead I prefer to point to people more knowledgeable than myself (just about everyone) to argue in detail my basic beliefs–in this case, 9/11 conspiracy theorists are whack-jobs.
This time though, I thought I'd let Penn & Teller speak their mind about this controversial subject. It aired on Showtime's Penn & Teller's Bullshit! a couple of months ago, but as I stated above, this subject will sadly continue it's relevancy for quite a while.
First, I saw a video of Bush in TX before his “dumb hick” act, and he sounded like some policy wonk on the economy. He’s not the idiot he pretends to be, but neither is Jim Carrey or Jerry Lewis. It’s just cute and disarming.
Second, MOST of Sept 11 conspiracy stuff is CONSERVATIVE, CHRISTIAN, RIGHT WING, and PATRIOT .. and even some Neo-Nazi .. which drives away legit left wing antiwar activism.
Penn and Teller are too big to be indie, they have to be a govt op. Popular Mechanics article was written by the cousin of the DHS Director.
However, the majority of 9-11 Confusion Movement is slowly being revealed as every bit as much a part of the 9-11 CIA Psyop as the MSM, in the alternative media.
It’s not a slam, and it’s not even MY idea. It’s just a notion I stumbled across which resonated with what I was expeiencing from the forefront of 9-11 Truth.
I’ve had to surrender a lot of heroes since 9-11. Amy Goodman. Noam Chomsky. Michael Parenti. Now, Alex Jones and the rest of his right wing circus, AND many of his critics.
The thing is, for a good CIA Psyop, it has to APPEAR credible and even revolutionary, so it has to throw in a LOT of truth. The analysis says basically, they covered up JFK for decades. Impossible with the Internet. Instead, reveal EVERYTHING, and bury it in … well .. Bullsh1t … to quote Penn. (still avail on Google Video, not You Tube)
For more info, I have links on my site. The 9-11 Confusion Movement is PART of 9-11, and a leaderless group of people are still trying to sort it all out, but have made a lot of headway.
Look up the Penn and Teller exposure of PETA on Indymediawatch for my comments on Gloria Steinem-CIA, or google that. She WAS conclusively documented to be operating and funded by CIA, including by grassroots women’s groups, for the purpose of damaging and diverting more powerful Leftist liberation movements, including ending the Vietnam War. (John Kerry’s Congressional Hearings can only be seen as ‘social control’ — why else would that Yalie, Skull and Bones elitist be hanging out with the grunts, if the grunts weren’t in need of monitoring and re-direction to controlled forms of protest vs. trained fearless killers (no slam, Veterans!) amassing in huge numbers in front of the Capitol?)
How much more of the Left is this?
9/11 was an inside job. Deal with it.
The Bush family aint that dumb, theyre the ost powerful family in the world for christ’s sake.
Albert, and anyone else who believe 9/11 was manufactured by the Bush administration, I just have one thing to say to you. PROVE IT! The burden of proof is on you. So “wow” me with your insights as to how the Bush admin. could have possibly orchestrated this?
Either prove it to me, or “deal with it” as you say.
No actually the burden of proof is on the ‘government’ and they have not proved a single thing.
The assertion is NOT that the Bush regime manufactured 9/11, the assertion is that it is a systemic PSYOP, by the economic power elite behind the so-called ‘government’.
Your lack of knowledge of history, psychology, and social engineering is blatant.
ww
Uh, no, actually the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecution. Which you would know if you had any knowledge whatsoever of the legal field.
There’s plenty of proof out there that the government was behind it, but I agree that it’s really hard to know who/what to believe. I recommend watching Press For the Truth:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083
Do you know what really makes me sad? That someone put so much effort into something that was such an obvious waste of time.
I’m still waiting for proof.
Can you prove that is wasn’t an inside job? As someone who does believe this “conspiracy theory,” I can honestly say that I would love nothing more to be proved wrong. I don’t think anyone wants to think that the government could do this to it’s own people. This isn’t a fight for who’s right and who’s wrong- it’s a fight for what’s true.
You don’t understand, Ben. The burden of proof is on you, and other people who believe this absurdist conspiracy propoganda. You have to prove to me that it wasn’t Islamic terrorists. You have to prove to me that it was Bush and our government.
The case for Islamic Terrorists is very strong. The case for the U.S. government pulling such an event off is not strong. Most intelligent individuals agree that Islamic terrorists were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. That means the burden of proof is on those who belive that 9/11 was orchestrated by the U.S. government. You are in the wrong until you can sufficiently prove otherwise.
Imagine we’re in a court of law. In this respect, I would be representing the defense. You would be representing the prosecution. You must prove your case in order to convince the jury that what you’re espousing is true.
More simply, let’s equate the basic 9/11 conspiracy theory to more simplistic terms. Let’s say you believe in the Loch Ness Monster. I do not believe in the Loch Ness Monster. Therefore, it is incumbent upon you, as the person who wants me to believe that the Loch Ness Monster exists, to present the proof necessary to change my mind.
So far, there has been no proof that 9/11 was orchestrated by anyone but Islamic terrorists. There is only a lot of theories and speculation from people who were so greatly affected by that massive tragic event, that they feel they must grasp onto tendrils of conspiracy rather than accept what is plainly before them.
“The burden of proof is on you, and other people who believe this absurdist conspiracy propoganda”~hecubus
Again, this is untrue, as far as the topic of law and proof is concerned.
The burden of proof to prove it to YOU, is irrelevant, the burden of proof under the standard of law is what is generally relevant.
ww
Under the “standard of law”, numbnuts, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecution in criminal law, or the plaintiff in civil litigation. But hey, what do I know? I’ve only been a paralegal for 13 years.
I could sit here all day and try to prove to you that the official explanation for September 11 is not true, and I’m sure that you would love to ridicule every “theory” or link that I posted. If you have ever actually researched it yourself, you would know that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that the towers and building 7 could not have collapsed like they did unless it was a controlled demolition… overwhelming evidence that it was not an American Airlines Flight that hit the pentagon…that Bush was repeatedly informed that terrorists were thinking about crashing planes into buildings, yet on September 11, he claims that when he saw the first plane hit the towers (a “mistaken recollection” according to his spokesman), his immediate thought was, “that’s one bad pilot.” Bush has been caught in lie after lie since September 11. The only honest thing he’s probably ever said was,”But all in all, it’s been a fabulous year for Laura and me,” on Dec. 20, 2001. Unfortunately, you are probably one of those people who will not accept or believe anything short of Bush going on CNN and saying, “yeah, I did it.” Fortunately, however, there are enough people on this planet who care enough about justice to actively search for answers, rather than sit back (like a member of a jury) and claim that the burden of proof is on everyone else.
Jesus. We should start a forum here, Ben.
Anyway, there isn’t overwhelming evidence for anything on the conspiracy theorists side. There just isn’t. If you would like to continue to bang your head against the wall, and “actively search for answers” more power to you. But saying that, “Fortunately, however, there are enough people on this planet who care enough about justice to actively search for answers, rather than sit back (like a member of a jury) and claim that the burden of proof is on everyone else” saying this is just the easy way out for you. You’re just saying that you’re either too lazy to provide me with explanations, or you lack evidence to back up any of your conspiracy claims. Remeber “burder of proof?” I didn’t just make that up, you know. Again, it is incumbent upon you to make me believe.
Look, I don’t like George Bush. I don’t like his administration. I didn’t vote for him, and I think he’s made a huge mess of everything he’s gotten his hands on. He’s an incompetent, C-grade president, leading one of the worst administrations in the history of this country. I have no love for the man, so I would have no problem saying, “Ben, you and all those who believed with you were right. I was wrong and you were right. I should’ve known.” But I can’t say that until you give me proof. I know that sounds like a broken record, but that has to be your job as one who believes this. Right now, you’re doing a very poor job of convincing me otherwise. “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
So on to Tower WTC7…
CLAIM: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: “The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one.”
FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA’s preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. “The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7,” NIST’s Sunder tells PM. “On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom–approximately 10 stories–about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST’s analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of “progressive collapse,” a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or “kinks,” in the building’s facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.
According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building’s failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. “What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors,” Sunder notes, “it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down.”
There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building’s other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.
Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. “There was no firefighting in WTC 7,” Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: “Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time.”
WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors–along with the building’s unusual construction–were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.
“Anyway, there isn’t overwhelming evidence for anything on the conspiracy theorists side. There just isn’t.” hecubus
In a word, bullshit.
ww
I find it hard to believe that the World Trade Towers/WTC 7 were built so poorly that they could be the only 3 buildings in history that have ever collapsed (at basically the speed of gravity) because of a fire. Just common sense alone would cause you to expect a little resistance as they collapsed.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/050106silversteinanswers.htm
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
The collapse of both World Trade Center towers–and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later–initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC’s structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn’t swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.
Widespread Damage
CLAIM: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center’s 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. “There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below,” claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). “It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (… such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash.”
FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.
The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower’s core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel–and fiery destruction throughout the building. “It’s very hard to document where the fuel went,” says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, “but if it’s atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it’ll go off.”
Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that “some elevators slammed right down” to the ground floor. “The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died,” says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary “9/11,” by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.
“Melted” Steel
CLAIM: “We have been lied to,” announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. “The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel.” The posting is entitled “Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC.”
FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn’t need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength–and that required exposure to much less heat. “I have never seen melted steel in a building fire,” says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. “But I’ve seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks.”
“Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F,” notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. “And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent.” NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.
But jet fuel wasn’t the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.
“The jet fuel was the ignition source,” Williams tells PM. “It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down.”
Puffs Of Dust
CLAIM: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: “The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions.” Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying “there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse.” The article continues, “Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.”
FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process “pancaking,” and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.
Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air–along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse–was ejected with enormous energy. “When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it’s going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window,” NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, “but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception.”
Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. “I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building,” he tells PM. “I only said that that’s what it looked like.”
Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. “I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line.” But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: “The paymaster of Romero’s research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement.” Romero responds: “Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years.”
Maybe it would be easier to know the real facts about the structural damage if all of the debris, or in other words, evidence, wasn’t gathered and shipped away as scrap before it could be properly examined.
It’s interesting how everything YOU believe is a fact, but everything I believe (along with 70% of the population, according to a CNN poll) is a “theory”.
Maybe we’d be able to agree on the facts of 9/11 if the government didn’t destroy or hide evidence that would prove us conspiracy nuts wrong- or put gag orders on firefighters and other people who saw what really happened.
All that poll tells me, Ben is how deaf, dumb, and blind people in this country are. Keep in mind, the majority of the people in the country also voted for Bush–twice.
What you believe IS theory. That’s why it’s called a conspiracy theory. There simply are many more respected scientific and engineering professionals who support this side of the argument than your side. For crying out loud, most of you people put more faith in that high school flunkie, Dylan Avery who made the ridiculously hilarious film, “Loose Change” than actual analysis and investigation. It’s just sad.
Anyway, since we’re probably the only two people reading this, and since we’re just not going to get each other to budge, please do us both a favor and go start your own blog. Enough of this back and forth. It’s been a pleasure.
Its amazing how much irrational thought you have to have to sustain to buy this crazy theory
They all talk about WT7..as if that building collapsing would be the extra building knocked down that would allow them to start a war on terror
But you know what…there are people who believe that drilling holes in peoples legs is Gods will. So all we are finding out is these same types of irrational thinkers are all through our society too. They are weirdo’s in civilized society..what would they be in the Middle east?
Joe Press, you sir are insane.
When you watch Terrorstrom or Loserchange I mean Loose they really make you frightened. They show you things that really make you think, but for christ sake…. I mean if you are trully that scepitcal do your own god damn research don’t let pot smoking paranoid Mike Moores of this world do your thinking for you!!! The only way Rome was brought down was due to itself. Think about it. Or maybe thats a conspiracy for another debate.
As a skeptic I don’t buy the 9/11 conspiracy theory myself. Today’s conspiracy theories has its roots in demon-lore. It is as though there is a man behind closed cutains pulling levers and controlling things like in the movie, The Wizard of Oz.
During the Middle-Ages, society believed in magic. It was believed that people were capable of having sex with demons. Many were put to death as a result of such a belief. The understanding of cause and affect was interpreted as the supernatural interfering with daily life. It was thought witches could manipulate things by conjuring demons. People, mostly women, were accused of witchcraft and were to put to death by the thousands.
Witchcraft trasnferred over into the new world. Salem Massachuchetts and other nearby towns went into a witchcraft accusation frenzy. Hundreds more were put to death. The Puritans saw the Devil everywhere.
From the mid 19th century to the 20th century, the spirtualist movement in vain, sometimes hoaxing, lured believers into proving life after death. The dead instead of the demons were sought after to connect with the lost loved ones duirng the rise of scientific materialism.
Secularism and the militarization of the government during the cold war in the beginnings of the space age, ushered in the belief of a UFO cover-up during the 1950’s and 1960’s. The 1990’s would see the reneweed interest as the millennium approached.
The UFO conspiarcy theory has given way to the 9/11 conspiracy theory. Alhough both theories are anti-government, the whole idea is to resent the government. Believers of the 9/11 movement feel they have no control in their lives and thus have given omnipotence to the government. The government is today’s devil.
>“On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom–approximately 10 stories–about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.”
This seems to be a sheer lie. Compare the two pictures in the link. There is no “scoop out”. Open your eyes!
http://www.911blogger.com/node/7471
Please, Hiro. You’re arguing semantics? Sheesh.
It’s actually nice to read that there are others out there that don’t buy into this 9/11 conspiracy bullshit!! I have to agree with Hecubus–the burden of proof is certainly on the conspiracy theorist to prove such an outlandish claim. Let’s be real here–Is it really that hard to believe that Islamic extremists could carry off such a plot. Furthermore, what advantage would an inside, government job do for the country? How could such a covert operation be concealed without any knowledge from those who participated?
Thus far, all of the supposed “evidence” presented by these conspiracy theories have already been studied and proven to be incorrect. The NIST is already preparing an addendum to their report that will discuss WTC 7 in much more detail. According to the conspiracy theorists, this is apparently their “smoking gun”. Most insist that the building was not damaged, yet it fell anyway. However, photos taken on all sides of the building, not just the one side that the conspiracy theorists would like you to see, indicates that the side facing the towers suffered heavy damage–it simply did not fall as quickly as the other buildings. The theorists conclude that it must have been destroyed since it would have served as the control center for the inside planning to occur since the building housed the mayor’s office, CIA, and other government bodies. But, is it really that hard to believe that major government offices would be located next to the economic hub of the United States?
What’s very distressing, in my opinion, is that people are far too naive to believe that a group of radical fundamentalists could carry out such a plot. Instead, it seems sexier to think that the government actually carried this out using CIA spooks and covert, black operations. It’s right out of an episode of the Matrix or the X-files or some Oliver Stone movie. Conspiracy theorists bitterly argue that those who are opposed to their viewpoints refuse to read the literature–“If you would only take the time to read the literature, you will see…” Blah, Blah, Blah…MY ASS! Well, contrary to this opinion, I’ve read ALOT of articles about the 9/11 conspiracy. And, I have to admit, at first glance, it is quite shocking and easily draws you in to examine the claims further. It is convincing because of the disaster our country faces as a result of a failed war campaign. It is also convinces an audience due to the amount of government secrecy during war time. All of the failures of the Bush Administration seem to only point to this GREAT conspiracy. But, wait a minute!!!! If the Bush Administration is so great at planning coups, covert operations, and government secrecy, then why would fail so miserably at foreign policy or government relations?
And, is it fair to the victims of 9/11, as well as the American public, to present information that is based off of shoddy evidence, especially considering that the nation watched as two planes crashed into the towers? I challenge any of these conspiracy clowns to walk right up to the family of the victims and start spouting off this bullshit; I’m sure a good, hard, swift kick right to the balls would be appropriate!
The 9/11 movement is getting out of control. People are being inundated with unbelievable amounts of disinformation from the supposed “9/11 truthers”. There are hidden agendas on every side–from anarchists to neo-Marxists, from extreme liberals to libertarians, from right wingers to doomdayers, and so on! Face it, people! There are a bunch of assholes in this country that believe that everything would be just great if it were like the Wild West where everyone gets make their own rules; that somehow our country would be more united, if all the states simply went their own way. My reply to this garbage is simple: Thank God for Moderates!!!
The only good I can see out this nonsense is that these groups represent only a small minority, which is why the media focuses so little time and energy on presenting these ridiculous claims. The evidence is so poor that new ideas about how the towers collapsed continue to become more bizarre as the days go on; for example, there are groups of people who believe that lasers were used or that the planes were controlled remotely. Come on–give me a break!
Well, I believe I’ve had a long enough outburst! Great discussion! Thanks!
Why is burden of proof on alternative conspiracy theorists? Why do you dictate we must provide proof to you? I have doen my own research and have reached the only logical conclusion, 9/11 was an inside job. Where is your proof, without quoting the governement, fox news or popular mechanics (which, by the way, david ray griffin did a great job of thoroughly debunking in “debunking 9/11 debunking”). Just quoting Popular Mechanics as “FACT” (lmao) does not prove the official conspiracy theory, in response I could point you to the many physicists who maintain, prefusely, that 9/11 was an inside job, such as Steven Jones. He actually analysed a steel sample from one of the buildings and found residue of thermite, an explosive used in controlled demolition. (and could not have been there by any other means btw). No other means other than controlled demolition can make a steel framed building induce global collapse at freefall speed, im sorry that’s not my opinion, that’s laws of physics (good luck proving them wrong). The buildings were designed to withstand airplane strikes that were faster and with more fuel. Fact. So the strikes were irrelevant, they did not cause the building collapse. Gasoline and office fires burning for one hour cannot melt steel, snap 110 storey core columns into 200 feet pieces and pulverise concrete and eject it over 500 feet. Fact. How do you explain molten steel weeks later? Please explain that to me! Why did underwriters laboratories, which certified the steel say it could have withstood much greater temperatures for much longer? why did nist say only 2% if the steel seen temperatures of over 250 degrees, and by the way fire temperature does not equal steel temperature. Steel redistributes heat,so it is physically impossible that it will weaken over 4 floors, it will first redistribute the heat over the whole 110-storey beam. This, incidentally, is why no steel building has ever collapsed before or since 9/11 (they were designed to survive aeroplane hits so please don’t repeat that bs). Why did the 9/11 commission not even mention building 7? why has there been no (plausible) explanation its collapse? (again I have read a thoroughly good debunking effort on Popular Mechanics, so if thats the only source you can quote, please don’t bother). The (most) logical explanation is controlled demolition (i am open to change). There are reports of demolition experts, 25 years in the trade, watching the collapse of building 7 for the first time and exclaiming “100% thats a demolition, they’ve done a good job”. Granted that’s not conclusive proof, but the molten metal and thermite is, along with reports of a countdown to a demolition. I know you may find it hard to believe, or may not want to, but if you set aside beliefs and look at the facts, much more of the proof, and I mean scientific proof, leads to a conclusion of controlled demolition. Just do some independent research for god sake! I thoroughly recommend the film “improbable collapse” as to this day I have not seen a response to the suggestion in this dvd of a controlled demolition. Perhaps because I am not American I can look at this less subjectively than you lot, but it still pisses me off that America is so stupid it cannot see or think for itself and that it is affecting all of us.
Like they say on south park:
One quarter of the population is retarded and thinks its a conspiracy.
thankfully i’m in the other three quaters!!!
I might also add that most of you conspiracy guys have problems. You will never prove anything. But of course you still for some stupid reason WANT the government to be responsible and you want the satisfaction of finding that out. whatyou don’t realise is that you are not getting satisfaction from it. You are getting stress cus u want to prove it to everyone but they won’t believe it. (and good on them)
SO DO YOURSELF A BLOODY FAVOUR and forget it.
you could make up conspiracies all day about everything that has ever happened. What’s it gonna be next??? We’ve been tricked into thinking the world is round???
I hate to think how much of your life you have wasted making up these crappy conspiracies.
You are all retarded.
I bet most of these conspiracies are ‘themselves’ governement conspiracies to make people think that they do have the power to pull of 9/11 when really they have no power at all.
George Bush is a brainless retard who is capable of nothing and so are you lot. Thankyou for listening and i hope you get on with your lives now.
face it that the tower got flown into by a load of pissed off muslims driving plane and there’s nothing you can do about it.
And even if the government were responsible and they have full control – What the fuck are u gonna do about it
are you planning to go and knock on the door of the white house and give bush a lecture????!!!
FUCK YOU ALL!!!!
What are the known scientific causes of whats known as “pyroclastic flow”, or a “pyroclastic cloud”?.
1. Volcano eruption
2. Building demolitions
So where did the pyroclastic flows come from on 9/11?, oh yea, the first ever, in the recorded history of modern Architectural engineering, collapse of not just one, but three steel constructed buildings from fire.. all on the same day NORADS near 100% success rate at intercepting suspicious aircraft over N. America fell to 0%.
Basically 9/11 was a total “freak of nature”, literally… whatever you say Mr. Govt, loyal sheep don’t dare question the “official” story, it’s not like the .gov has ever planned to attack its own citizens before… used a an excuse for war… oops, I forgot “Operation Northwoods”.
Baaaah… move along sheep, nothing to see here, BTW did you know Britney had a bowel movement today? now thats entertainment.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I find it hard to believe there are people out there who can actually believe our own govt would do such a thing. You people dont even deserve any explanation you are simply nuts. You sit in your basement looking for someone to tell you what you want to be true. I bet most of you also belive we have micro chips planted in us and live by infowars and prison planet HAHAHAHAHAHA. Why would no credible politician Rep or Dem (except the retard Ron Paul, who is the joke of politics) use this as their platform. Ill tell you why ITS NOT CREDIBLE QUIT LOOKING FOR WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR FROM WACKOS ON THE INTERNET.
I have one question for the conspiracy theorists: What about the minor point that bin Laden and his group proudly admit to being behind the attacks. Anyone who thinks that Bush or any administration could have planned and executed a plan of this magnitude in 9 short months (the amount of time Bush was in office) really needs some meds to start thinking more clearly.
Well, I just got hung up on my an old friend who assumed that I automatically believed that our govt. “murdered those people” as he did.
This conversation came about because my friend was strolling the isles of Blockbuster’s and saw the 911 Commission documentary. I said I thought I saw that and was commenting on the fact that it seemed that the family members of the victims pressed for this whole investigation as a collective. (can’t remember for sure).
So he thought I had the same view: “Yeah, the government murdered all those people ….” All I said was I don’t know if I believe that (even faltering as I tend to do upon stating an oppositional belief). Instantly, I was getting talked to like I was some idiot:
“It’s okay if you want to be a super naive patriot and if you want to stay in denial…..”
I said a few things about the fact that maybe some people just can’t fathom that some guys hiding out in a cave somewhere could be capable of such a thing and that I liked the Popular Mechanics article on what caused the towers to fall.
Then suddenly he had to get off the phone to check out of Blockbuster’s, was going to call back, and never did. Of course, me (being the female) will be the one who was the irrational, overly emotional one.
I really do not buy whatever is handed to me either way and I told him that, but honestly, I tend to side with rationale and scientific investigation.
In fact, I am about to go out and find a whole new circle of friends because about everyone I know in this certain art and music scene is just over the top about all this stuff – including alien abduction, astrology, etc. ad nauseum.
Why is it that all these same people are always the first to start the conspiracy theory discussions and want to keep them alive years and years later?
It really should not bother me what other people believe, but after a while, it sure gets on a person’s nerves. I could really let my friend have it, but will just quietly walk away instead.
You know at one point there was 2 basic 9/11 theories that were circulating around.
The “inside job” was one of them. Somehow this”Inside job” theory managed to become the consensus argument for 9/11 theorist. How, I don’t know. The rationale and circumstantial evidence that’s been thrown out by these idiots is mind boggling. There’s not hardly one creditable expert in any of the fields that says the “inside job” was actually plausible. The one expert they use quotes from discounts their theory and says they misquoted him to further their agenda. It’s become a joke actually that people are being force fed this crap by diluted self promoting simpletons who can’t take no for an answer even when the reality is as plain as day.
The other theory that has a more of a chance of actually being legitimate is the “They knew, but let it happen” theory. They was FBI reports that some agents were alerted to suspicious activity at flight school regarding Arabic nationals taking flight classes at their school with reported “unusual” behavior. The FBI report at the time was supposedly dismissed as nothing serious. However, conspiracy theorist argue that the government knew more but let it happen. In the end it was those very same Arabic nationals that were involved in the hijackings and subsequent attacks on US buildings.
I would have been more easily apt to believe the”they knew” theory, but after that theory being dismissed for the more outlandish “inside job” theory I’ve come to the point where i believe it was just an unprepared America getting a wake up call from Osama Bin Laden.
The one thing that all the CT retards overlook is the fact that the WTC towers were built by using short length columns and beams. The damage inflicted by Timothy McVeigh’s truck bomb in Oklahoma City is ample proff of the instability of this building method. Another prime example is the collapse of an entire corner of the Ronan Point apartment building in London 40 years ago.
And as for the relative ease of damage inflicted by the planes to the towers on their points of impact, there is absolutely no difference between that and the damage inflicted by the kamikaze pilots in World War 2. Or are the CT retards going to try and convince all the remaining WW2 veterans that the ships they served on were prerigged with explosives? Of course they weren’t.
Not to mention that that the largest controlled demolition EVER (world record) was much, much smaller.
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030225133807
I haven’t read about it in awhile but it took something like all day continually with a crew to load up all the explosives.
Now think about how long it would take, how big of a job it would be, to completely line BOTH WTC towers with these explosives, and that it would officially be by far the largest controlled demolation in history. Quite a job to keep quiet.
Why would they then blow up WTC Building 7 much later when it’s evacuated? (What would be the point of that?)
They also found the black box of the plane in the pentagon, and there were plenty of pieces of the plane found, including the remains of the passengers.
I used to buy into the Conspiracy Theory, but after realizing how little evidence there really is, and the fact that there is no “new” evidence, in addition to no evidence refuting any of the proven facts that disprove the theory, it got really old.
I find it sad how many people are blindly buying into this. They always say “do your research”, but their supposed research comes from the same old dry repeated websites with little to no real facts.
Think for yourself they always say… How ironic.
so you nuts think the gov is so smart to make people fly into the centers or do I understand you think it just looked that way. if so the plane is ?????? Where??????????????
are you thinking the terrorists were convinced by the gov to do this .
Stop the drugs. Seriously this is an old blog but after crying 2008-911 I cannot believe I found this whack job front.
Was in DC waiting by the phone to help with those who needed med help/ All dead………no one called
Guess you should all call Rosie O.
Or maybe shut the hell up or move
Think I feel better. Go Obama he will save your asses
NI Night whacks
Figure out why you think the way you do.
Bless those who saved and the rest get a job
To all who still credit the “official story” of 9/11, and who ridicule anyone who demurs as a “conspiracy theorist,” I have only one question. Please read it carefully:
By what law of thermodynamics can the (damaged) top fifth of a steel-frame skyscraper crash right through the (undamaged) lower four-fifths–the path of most resistance–at freefall rate, without encountering any resistance from all the floors below, all while simultaneously disintegrating, leaving only a pile of pulverized cement rubble amid huge steel girders cut at 45 degree angles at the bottom 10 seconds later?
No such phenomenon, violating both the first and second law of thermodynamics simultaneously, is possible in THIS universe. The First Law of Thermodynamics states, unequivocally, that energy output must exactly equal energy input–no more, no less. Now, let’s review the known energy inputs of 9/11:
(1) the impact of a large jet ( which the buildings had been specifically designed to withstand, and did in fact withstand for an hour or more);
(2) the kerosene jet fuel, which was instantly (and visibly) consumed in a large yellow fireball at the moment of impact, igniting…
(3) open office fires, which after an hour had turned into thick smoke–the sure sign of an oxygen-starved fire that is cooling, rather than getting hotter. Incidentally, most of the flammable materials in the office–desks, carpets, computers, etc. would have been fire-retardant anyway; that is, they would have had very little potential stored energy, and would have quickly gone out, as in fact they did.
(4) The gravitational force of the top fifth of the building on the lower four-fifths: since the steel skeleton of the building had been built to support this weight, and the office fires generated far too little heat to melt or even warp steel, this gravitational energy would not have been released anyway.
Now let us review the energy output: the catastrophic collapse of the entire buildings into their own footprint, steel girders and all, at freefall rate, pulverizing the concrete into dust. Physicists have calulated that the energy output exceeded the input by at least a factor of 10.
In short, what happened on that day could not have possibly happened, within the laws of physics, without a collateral source of energy–specifically, the demolition charges that were clearly visible going off symmetrically all the way down–including the “squibs” that were blowing out windows well below the horizon of collapse. All this is visible, prima facie evidence of controlled demolition, which, coupled with what any 10th grader knows of the Laws of Physics, should be enough to convince any thinking person that the official story is a lie and a fraud, through and through.
I am not, incidentally, a “conspiracy theorist.” I have no clue as to who perpetrated this crime, though I have some suspicions, based on the familiar doctrine of “cui bono” (who benefits?) But before we can pursue a legitimate forensic investigation into “who done it,” we must first ascertain what was done. The basic laws of thermodynamics and our own eyes should be enough to tell any thinking person that what was done was a controlled demolition–it could not have been anything but!
By what law of thermodynamics can the (damaged) top fifth of a steel-frame skyscraper crash right through the (undamaged) lower four-fifths–the path of most resistance–at freefall rate, without encountering any resistance from all the floors below, all while simultaneously disintegrating, leaving only a pile of pulverized cement rubble amid huge steel girders cut at 45 degree angles at the bottom 10 seconds later?
wtc towers were not convensional ‘steel-frame’ buildings.
google it.
wtc towers did not fall at ‘freefall speed’.
google it.
wtc towers did encounter resistance and split apart as they collapsed.
youtube it.
wtc towers’ gurders were cut at 45 degrees during clearing-up
of the sight.
google it.
neither towers collapsed in only ’10 seconds’.
google it.
Well, for starters, let’s look at just how much evidence there is to support either side of the argument:
Evidence against the official story:
Visible demolition squib explosions. White smoke as opposed to the thick, black smoke from the jet fuel explosions. Read up on basic fire science and learn what causes smoke to be white or black. Bldg 7 collapsing when it wasn’t even hit.
NO evidence of an airplane hitting the Pentagon. No impact hole in the building for the wings, no debris of wings on the lawn.
Pieces of Flt 93 scattered over a five mile radius indicating that it HAD to have been SHOT down.
Evidence for the official story: NONE. You were told what to believe and you believed it.
So it’s been almost a decade and no one who was slightly involved in this “inside job” ever came out of the closet anonymously and give us a slightest hint of the big evil corporate government who planned this heinous plan to morally corrupt Americans and weaken your sense of safety…
You guys gotta be kidding.
Yes. It is indeed strange that none of the real conspirators have confessed. However, if you were in on it and your choices were stay silent, have enough cash, gold, etc to be set for life, or be killed? which do you think you would choose?
In most cases, the simplest explanations are the most valid. This conspiracy theory definately needs to be looked at a little closer. As an american born arab man living in new york city, i kind of find it somewhat offensive for people to deny the fact that arabs could have pulled this off. Any human race including eskimos, mongolians, and ethopians could have hijacked a plane and crashed it into a building. The only concerns I have is why would the government declare war two years later on a nation that never had any involvement in 9/11 under the false pretenses of WMDs. This strikes me as odd. Yes, governments have created flase flage operations in the past, including the berline fire during the time of the nazis. Im gonna be the one who stands up and proudly says, I do not know what happened and dont expect to. One warning for conspiracy theorists is that they will never get to the bottom of this, just look at people who contend the official Jfk story. 40 years later and still rambling on. I have grown to accept that we will never know what really happened, and im fine with that. (now its time to deny some retarded dec21 2012 theories)
what a retarded blog.
you fuckwits who say noones come forward must be living with your heads up your arse
http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20100305_911_whistleblowers.htm
and all you have to do is watch the towers explode to know they didnt come down without the aid of explosives.. what a bunch of scared fucknuckles
I have only one question to those who say it cannot be a conspiracy, What is the harm in a real investigation? I want to know what the truth is. All this name-calling, such as… “CTs are retards” which I have seen in this and other blogs so many times… That is childish behavior.
Real people were killed on 9/11. They and their families deserve the truth… they deserve justice. If 9/11 was an inside job, the guilty should be punished, what is retarded about that? I think all those who are so adamant that the CTs are wasting their time or just plain wrong are in fact part of the cover-up. One would think they too would support an investigation even if only to finally settle the debate.
Erm….I was 7 years old at the time, and the one thing that still confuses me to this day is, how does an unauthorized plane just fly into the U.S?
I just wish the conpiracy theorist would actually do the research, they tell non-cts to do. the following points are only to the comments on this website.
1) ben, there were many “first” that day such as THE FIRST TIME FULLY LOADED AIRLINERS WERE INTENTIONALLY FLOWN INTO A SKYSCRAPER! not exactly what the
designers had invisioned. As for wtc7 look it up. Plus the buildings did not fall at or near the speed of gravity, it wasnt in a vacuum you dolt, also look at the debris cloud during the collapse, seems ahead of the structure during the fall, N’EST PAS?
2) Mr.Rowan, thermite used in controlled demolitions? When? where? thermite burns very hot but is lousy as an explosive, remember that, when your kids are lighting sparklers on the fourth of july, thats thermite.
3)Mr. Ellis, nice of you to enter physics into the fray. Every structure consists of a load ( the weight of a building frame , plus hardware, plus furnishings, etc.) lets call that gravitational potential energy. That is, the energy equal to the height times the mass times the force of gravity, sooo, how much energy is it going to take to smash one floor to the next, could it at least be five floors of potential energy?when the energy is coverted to kinetic energy due to weakening of structural supports (from heat ,not explosives) and initial collapse, add that up plus additional floors as those fall on the next one and so on. It certainly would show that there is a build up of kinectic energy as each subsequent floor would pancake with enough force to overcome the structural integrity of the next floor, not the whole building below it , but eventually bringing the building down. Of course when demolitionist do it, they use explosives to insure a tidy collapse and reduce harm to surrounding structures, as was not the case with the wtc towers. How do you account for the debris field impacting surrounding buildings? or the fact that there were survivers in a portion of tower one? please, please read up on building demolition, there is not a “one size fits all” approach, (just add tnt then stir) most buildings are brought down with construction knowledge , minimal explosives, and gravity. Also check out the northridge meadows collaspe which occured during california’s northridge earthquake and that was only three stories atop a soft-story garage.
As with the case of fires , Have you ever seen an aircraft fire? where did the fusilage and seats go? according to you the fuel would burn up in the “fireball” so I guess there is a reason for those no smoking lights. And when does “fire retardant” mean fire proof? keep that in mind when someone takes a flamethrower to you in your fire retardant jammies at your next sleepover! But I guess all the materials in the buildings were rated to withstand a FRICKIN AIRLINER LOADED WITH KEROSENE AND THE ACCOMPANIED HEAT IT GENERATED! Look at any aircraft fire and see whats left, I’m betting the interiors were fire retardant.
By the way, there was a countdown? did the warning siren go off too?
“…when your kids are lighting sparklers on the fourth of july, thats thermite.”~Tom
Ha ha ha ha…your frickin nuts.
ww
Sparklers are made of granulate magnesium.
ww
anyone buying into conspiracy theories are complete fucking idiots. you don’t demolish buildings from top to bottom and it’s clear the towers collapsed top to bottom. comparing flight 93 to other air crashes is complete bullshit. almost all crashes take place during take off or landing and aren’t flown nose first into the ground. there isn’t a single conspiracy theory that can’t be disproven by facts. dumb asses like the loose change idiots arguing about cell phones not being able to operate at crusing altitude is complete bull besides the fact that plenty of calls were made from plane phones. anyone buying into this shit is a complete fucking idiot.
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